Panel Notes: Representation in Dating Sims

[spindizzy]

Representation in Dating Sims was one of the three panels that I pretty much WINDMILL SLAMMED the favourite button on on the Nine Worlds Schedule. (The other two were the LGBTQI in Anime panel, and the one clairerousseau was doing on How To Keep Creating When The World's On Fire, which I didn't actually manage to make it into, whoops.) But this one! I took NOTES, I had a great time, A+ would windmill slam again.

• Moderating: AngRieWords. Presenting: EmilyRMarlow (who did the Mass Effect and Philosophy panel, because she's doing a PhD on religion in video games!), and redrocketpanda (I'm sorry, I didn't clock everyone's pronouns, so I'm using "they"). The slides can be found here, thank you AngRieWords!


• Apparently the panel was brought about by April Fools 2018, where a bunch of companies decided that their April Fool's prank would be "mainstream game, but a dating sim!" which felt patronising – to dating sims, to visual novels, to us! Although apparently someone did actually make "this game, but a dating sims," (Dungeon Hearts?) so I guess more power to them! (I would like it noted on a purely personal level that I would ABSOLUTELY give my money to mainstream games as dating sims, that sounds AMAZING.)


• I really really wish I'd had the sense stick my hand up in the Q&A to ask AngRiewords what it was like having Hatoful Boyfriend being your introduction to the dating sim genre. I feel like that would be simultaneously amazing and an absolute trip.


• EmilyRMarlow was there to represent the Dragon Age side of this equation (because Bioware games are dating sims, fight us.) Apparently Mass Effect was the first game they'd played where they could romance people, but Dragon Age was the one that they went full "ROMANCE. EVERYONE." over.


• redrocketpanda played Dragon Age: Inquisition and restatted their ENTIRE CHARACTER to romance Dorian. Respect.


• AngRieWords talked about how the mainstream gaming industry doesn't actually respect visual novels and dating sims at all (see also: the pranks), despite putting quite similar mechanics into their games (see also: the "gifts will make you love me" mechanic in Dragon Age: Origins), and invited the panelists to talk about Krem.


• redrocketpanda thought it was a complicated issue. They were glad Krem was there, it was good rep, but why can't we romance Krem when we can romance Scout Harding?! But on the flip side, they would much rather have had him as an excellent character than as a bad romance option.


• EmilyRMarlow does not want there to be baby steps in representation, but Bioware are clearly trying to do it right, and there's been such a response.


• It's a cop-out though. If they were worried about presenting the romance appropriately, they could have done like they did with Josephine, who doesn't get a sex-scene at all.


• The next question in my notes is garbled to the point where I can't parse meaning from it. I THINK what I meant is "What are the complications driving more representation in dating sims and visual novels?" but I also just have a brackets next to that saying "(Complications = baby steps)" which I assume was "What is leading to these baby steps?" maybe?


• EmilyRMarlow reckons that it's the difference between a big studio and an indie studio with fewer restrains. Bioware want to get it right, hence the baby steps, while indie games have more freedom.


• redrocketpanda says that the problem is probably big business and corporate blah, but also they have so many fans invested, including a small subset of the fanbase who want no queers at all. (I remember this! We all remember this!) Small studios can just not care about that part of the fanbase, whereas Bioware tries to please everyone and pleases no one.


• EmilyRMarlow points out that we love these games (I think referring mainly to Bioware games here) because of their diversity, but the box art and the adverts are just white dudes. And they get some things wrong, like the lighting rigs for people who aren't white.


• AngRieWords points out something that came up in the queer anime panel, of "This is what they can get away with" because of their worries about selling the game.


• Which dating sims do you think have done inclusivity and/or representation well?​ Tried to make a good effort? Do you see yourself in games?
  
  • redrocketpanda says no, as a trans person they're so starved of rep they want to make it work and find one that's GOOD so that more gets made.
  
  
  • EmilyRMarlow agrees, nothing is quite there yet. We're supposed to be happy for scraps, even if it's just innuendo. We deserve better. It's not right. It's not fair.
  
  
  • (I teared up a little at that, ngl.)
  
  
  • AngRieWords brought up a game called Gehennam, which was billed as representation – but it turned out to be representation of the folklore it was drawing from, not race. (I believe they said that one of the few people from that culture in the game wasn't actually a romance option, which: ?????) Are there some representations done better than others?
  
  
  • Emily: not so much.
  
  
  • redrocketpanda reckons that there's some out there that you can download for free or as donationware. They're out there, but the problem is that no one's talking about them. Also sometimes it feels like a tickbox exercise.


• Which led us suspiciously well to Dream Daddy. AngRieWords wanted to know what Dream Daddy got right or wrong.


• EmilyRMarlow thought it did quite well at male adult and female child relationships. They were quite relaxed and supportive, and a good framing mechanism. It LOOKS gorgeous, although all of the faces look like they're made from the same template (I think her exact words were "very Disney" which is a burn somewhere.). They also wonders who the actual intended audience was, because all of the reporting they saw was like "Oh hey straight girls, you'll love this."


• redrocketpanda liked that it gave you the option to be trans and have different types of bodies, and that it gave you the option to say how you had Amanda. (You have the option to say that you gave birth to her!) And whatever you choose for your character, your previous partner was always a PoC! There WAS a trans character, but the fact that he's trans is barely even there. Is that representation? Really? (This was really interesting to me, because I found out that the character was trans after I'd done his route and I had NO IDEA how I'd missed it! But no, it turns out that he talks about his binder, but it sounds like he's just... Talking about a corset? Which would not have been an out of character choice for him?) His trans identity is never explicitly stated, and he's the most femme guy on the cast, which is... Not great.


• On the topic of explicit representation: disability used in place of characterisation! ​AngRieWords is autistic, and she's happy for more rep! But often the rep is bad.
  ​
  • redrocketpanda points out that it's not necessarily difficult, it's not like someone's whole life revolves around that identity. Make casts more diverse can be done in design, so visual cues without making it a big song and dance. It's shoddy to be like "We have aliens but no PoC and disabled people!"
  
  
  • EmilyRMarlow suggests that Bioware tried, but Joker's disability is his plot point in Mass Effect 1. And in Dragon Age: Inquisition: Trespasser [SPOILER WARNING] you lose and arm and it's suggested that this is somehow linked to the end of the game. :|
  
  
  • redrocketpanda has seen the opposite, and the story ends with the disabled characters getting cured. (Did the audience actually hiss at that, or do I just remember that because that was my reaction?)
  
  
  • EmilyRMarlow highlights Geordie LaForge as evidence that companies are capable of putting disability rep in easily. JUST DO IT.


• ​And then we got to the section on Doki Doki Literature Club. Literally all I knew about it was that it was about teenage girls, and SOMETHING awful must happen in it because rionaleonhart wrote fic for it and that's practically a prereq. (Is it a call out if it's true?) I wasn't expecting the sheer level of NOPE everyone felt towards it!.
  
  • Apparently there's 151 dating sims on Steam right now, which sounds INCREDIBLY low to me, but AngRieWords is horrified by the idea that Doki Doki Literature Club might be someone's first dating sim. It has a depressed character with really good rep and recognisable behaviour, until halfway through the game, where it goes full horror tropes through mental illness.
  
  
  • I'll be honest, it wasn't until EmilyRMarlow started talking about how bad and misogynistic the writing is that I realised that the protagonist is supposed to be a guy. I thought it was a school girl lesbian dating sim! And apparently you're playing a really gross guy who objectifies everyone! Ew! Also it's REALLY TELLING that it needs so many content warnings.
  
  
  • ... redrocketpanda didn't know it had horror elements, oh no. Oh no. They can understand why the devs say it's satire, but it's the "satire as code for being offensive" rather than actual satire. They thought it was going to be about Saori's depression and being a friend to her, but the horror is so graphic and unnecessary and bad and DANGEROUS. It didn't do anything new.
  
  
  • AngRieWords sums that up as It's not progressive, it's just bad.


• AngRieWords turned the topic to body positivity! Pair ♥ A ♥ Normal ​is based on real people (?!?!?!?!) so it tried to actually represent what the people really look like, which means it has quite a wide range of body types. Are dating sims in general doing any good on the body front?


• redrocketpanda says that the way we're gonna get good rep is by keeping on doing it doing it doing it to drown out the bad stuff. It's easier on the indie side of the industry as you can be more adventurous, but the audience needs to TALK ABOUT THEM and promote the good ones!


• EmilyRMarlow finds that a lot of dating sims are in a very anime style, which they don't really associate with, they can't see themself in that.


• redrocketpanda would quite like to see a not-dating sim about aro people making friends, or one about consent, where you're explicitly rejected and just have to deal with that. It would help people to learn! EmilyRMarlow agrees, because it would be good in games with massive casts to have characters turn you down!


• And then we got to the Q&A section, which actually turned into a MASSIVE REC LIST, because I love everyone in this bar. The recs I managed to catch were Butterfly Soup, We Know The Devil (lesbian romance at a summer camp where spooky things are happening, I've not played it but I did buy it on the strength of the devs talking about how the game got made., With Those We Love Alive, Ladykiller in a Bind (lesbian(?) romance/smut on a cruise ship full of dommes (no really) where the protagonist is posing as her twin brother??? I don't know, I've not played it yet.), Katawa Shoujo (dating sim where all of the character are explicitly disabled, but it came out of 4chan so MAYBE handle with care. I was trying to remember the name when the question of characters with disabilities came up but I couldn't remember it, I'm glad someone else could.), Angels With Scaley Wings, Magical Diary.


• Audience question: do you think it's damaging to the fandom that the (BL?) dating sims that you can get legally/that get licensed are often OFFENSIVE?
  
  • AngRieWords: Yes. Please god let Doki Doki Literature Club not be someone's first game.
  
  
  • redrocketpanda wants people to talk about the games that do it right, and warn against the others.
  
  
  • EmilyRMarlow finds it to be a double-edged swords. People can make a visual novel game more easily, so the selection doesn't have the rigour of some of the other categories... But that means WE can make them!
  
  
• ... I very helpfully just wrote down "Marketing" for this audience question, past!me why.


• EmilyRMarlow pointed out Dragon Age got advertised to multiple markets, to the point where there were thirty separate ads for Dragon Age: Inquisition. The majority of the ads are like "Be an action hero!" but most of the people you actually SPEAK to about Bioware games are playing them for the romances? So really companies need better state on their player audience, and they need to believe them when they're released. (For example, EVERYONE play fem!Shep, but every advert is m!Shep.) And compare the reaction to Anthem, where they specifically announced that there WOULDN'T be romances, like they thought we were playing these games for their combat mechanics!


• All I have written down for redrocketpanda's response is that "marketing very pink and gendered," which I THINK was a really good point about the way that games containing romance are marketed, regardless of how appropriate it is, but my notes were breathtakingly unhelpful by this point.


• I really enjoyed this panel, I had a lot of fun and came away with new recs!

Comments

[rionaleonhart]

SOMETHING awful must happen in it because rionaleonhart wrote fic for it and that's practically a prereq

HEY

YES, I'VE ONLY JUST SEEN THIS

HEY

...I mean, you're not wrong, but STILL.

Interesting to me that the panel reacted so strongly against Doki Doki Literature Club! I didn't think it was a masterpiece, and some of it was definitely just WHAT CAN I PUT HERE THAT WILL GET A REACTION, but I thought it was an interesting short diversion for what it was, and it did have a touch of heart to it. There was one scene I found really upsetting, but the developers had clearly warned that it contained upsetting scenes, so, you know, fair enough.

Also, surprisingly good poetry. I read a lot of poetry in my work and was extremely startled that the poetry in this weird little indie game wasn't awful.

A lot of people seem to hate the protagonist. I mostly just feel sorry for him. (My fic was an attempt to explore him a little more than the game itself does.)